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Back from the Wilderness...
15 Dec 2003 by Ernest Kim
Some of you may already know that, after leaving 37signals and going fishing for a while, I pulled up stakes and moved out to Corvallis, Oregon to work for a small company called Bigha. Our goal is to make interesting, non-conventional products to help people enjoy the outdoors in a non-competitive way. Right now we have one product and it’s a recumbent-style bike.
I’m coming out of the wilderness because we finally launched our new site at http://www.bigha.com. It’s still a work in progress, but I think it’s a big step forward for us.
Most of you probably never saw the old site, but, trust me, it was bad. It was almost entirely Flash-based and a lot of the people who used it didn’t even know they could buy the bike online (in fact, our Web site is the only place you can buy the bike).
First off, I’d love to hear what people think of the site. I know it’s quite bandwidth-heavy, but we felt that, given the nature of the product and our target audience, big, high-quality images were critical. And I know that the code is quite ugly--chalk that up to me being in a big hurry. But it should display “properly” in IE 6.0 for Win, IE 5.x for Mac (though there are a few small issues based on bugs in IE), Mozilla for Win, and Safari for Mac. Those were our targets given our browser stats.
Secondly, JF asked if I’d be willing to share some thoughts on the change in going from the design-firm side to the client side, so here goes…
I’d been on the client-side in the past when I worked at Lifetime Television, but that was a long time ago and before I had any experience in an agency environment. Going back to being on the client-side I’ve found that there are some key differences in developing within one world vs. the other.
- Time. Though I am working on some non-Web projects at Bigha, a huge proportion of my time on a daily basis is devoted to the site--far more than would be practical or financially feasible if I were working on the Bigha site from the design-firm side of the fence. The downside is that I don’t have the variety of working on projects for different kinds of clients, but I have to say that I’m finding the ability to really, fully devote myself to this one “cause” very refreshing.
- Open, Honest Communication. This is partly a function of the people I work with at Bigha, but I think it’s also a function of being on the client-side. The dynamics are entirely different because we’re co-workers talking to each other all day, every day, not contractors talking to the people who hired us once every few days. There is zero BS here — people say exactly what they think and it makes things go a lot faster.
- More Organic Development. Because we all sit together and see each other all day, every day, we were able to develop the site in a much more organic way. I did, in large part, define the structure of the site in advance, and I did develop some basic templates up-front, but after that, content development and design development were one and the same. It wasn’t a situation where one person wrote some copy that was plugged into a template, which was then pushed live. Someone would work on copy, bounce it off everyone else, I would flow it into a template, we’d talk about it, and then the person who wrote the copy would make tweaks to the content and I would make tweaks (sometimes major changes) to the design. The two components influenced each other in a big way. This was certainly less efficient than a more process driven workflow, but I think the end result tells a stronger, more cohesive story. This was the biggest adjustment for me because I’d become accustomed to a much more process-driven approach where things were done in discreet sequences.
- Much Less Documentation. Again, because we see each other every day, things that would be heavily documented in a design firm/client relationship could be done in shorthand. I did mock up a few schematics at the outset, but I never developed a functional spec or anything along those lines. I just explained what I was looking for to the engineers and we talked through any issues as they came up. I’m still going to document everything for future reference, but this saved a huge amount of time during development (it also helped that our engineers are great to work with).
- Lots of Work. Having come from an environment where we would deliver a handful of design templates that would be used as the basis for a site, the amount of work required to build out an actual, fully functioning site came as a surprise to me and my initial timeline projections were waaaayyyy off. This was partly due to the organic development process outlined above, but was mostly just because there’s a heck of a lot to do. There’s a huge difference between building templates and building a site — esp. when the site combines elements of a content and a commerce site.
I’m sure I’m forgetting some things, but those are the things that jump to mind right now. My biggest concern was that I would get bored working for just one client all the time — and in other situations that could very well have been the case — but the challenge for us here at Bigha is big enough that I think I’ll feel fully occupied for a good long while.
Anyone considering a change from one world to the other, please feel free to post questions here. And anyone else who’s made the jump, please feel free to chime in as well. My experience could very well be the exception rather than the rule.
And anyone interested in buying the bike, by all means, go right ahead! ;-)
50 comments so far (Post a Comment)
15 Dec 2003 | Darrel said...
As much as I appreciate the advantages of a recumbant, they all suffer the same problem as the Segway: dorkiness. ;o)
Nice site. Not sure if the images need to be as big as they are, but they're nice images.
And congrats on the job and location. Looks beautiful out there...
15 Dec 2003 | Mike said...
I have to be honest.
Bigha's website is the most beautiful semi e-commerce company website I have ever seen. And I work on the web everyday.
The navigation is fantastic and extremely easy to use. Ofcourse, I expected nothing less from a 37s alum ;)
So why are you listed under the "marketing" section if you work on the site all day long?
15 Dec 2003 | pek said...
The logo I love. I have seen it somewhere before. Good luck with everything EK.
15 Dec 2003 | Dr_God said...
Excellent site. Can't say anything bad about it...except: when you go to the Shop, and it asks you to select a bike size, you're supposed to measure your leg length and then match it up with the corresponding bike. But I can't find any sort of size/length chart that tells me what bike to choose based on my leg length.
16 Dec 2003 | One of several Steves said...
I did see the old site. And, you're right. It sucked. Bad.
This looks very nice. I think the high-quality imagery is important - just so people can see how dorky the recumbent looks... (I suppose I should try riding a recumbent someday just to see what it's like, but I don't really have the back/neck issues with a regular road bike anyway.)
I can relate to the client/agency differences. I was on the client side for a few years. Been on the agency side for close to four now. There are definitely things I miss about the client side. But, some of the things, like lack of documentatoin, sooner or later came back to bit us in the ass. You end up relying too much on people's heads. And, sooner or later, people move on.
16 Dec 2003 | Paul said...
That is a beautiful site. I like it quite a bit, and could definitely use a Bigha in the Rockies. (In theory, anyway.)
16 Dec 2003 | Gilbert said...
Great job on the site! I especially like the shadows, the tab navigation and the left nav. My only feedback is that the Shop page feels a little tight especially the "The Bike You'll Fall in Love with" section and the directions (1-2-Add to Order) but I'm guessing you were trying to fit that within the 800x600 fold. The items on the bottom (60-day) and the "Order by Phone" on the left just seemed to compete with the directions above. Other than that, though, it's another hit.
I appreciated the thoughts on your transition. I'm like most of these 37s-wannabe freelance designers - keeping a day job while making a name for myself to hopefully build my own studio (with more than one person).
What's interesting, though, is that in my day job we are keeping more detailed documentation of the design guidelines for our web application. It's huge so I need to cross the t's and dot the i's for every design element. I think I've written 35+ pages now, ranging from copywriting (Document # instead of Document No. or Document Number) to more complex transactions.
I do love the time it gives me to make sure I have everything in place. Having a contract to do something like this would be horrible.
Anyway, just my thoughts. Good luck, EK! Are you gonna have a blog, by the way?
16 Dec 2003 | dmr said...
EK, I really appreciate the hand-holding linear approach to the navagation; sure it has non-linear options, like any web site, but the linear story feels right, articulate and very smooth transitionally.
The images are the perfect size, definitely not too big.
The bullet points are excellent; damn the site is so finely written, I can't wait to show this off to everybody at work tomorrow! I did see a few "--" that I really wish were em dashes tho!
I really like the little icons and graphics sweets in the shop and peppered throughout the sitereally, it's all so excellent and thoughtful. It's very 37refreshingthe kind of copy I wish I could write.
I'd consider a new bike, but I've already got a terribly uncomfortable, but damn expensive ($750), Cannondale. It sure is light though (who was I kidding? I don't RACE bikes). Ugh.
16 Dec 2003 | Daniel Burka said...
The site looks great Ernest. Clean, simple, and the checkout it very nice. Only one small comment. Have you considered putting some sort of price right on the front page? The fact that the bikes were for sale on the site was only immediately apparent because you mentioned it in your post beforehand. A simple price on the front page (starting at $3,000) or something like that can be an intuitive indication that the product is in fact for sale on the site. This might be useful particularly since the site doesn't have a cart which is usually an indicator of a store. Just a minor comment that you can disregard if you've already considered it. Otherwise, fantastic.
16 Dec 2003 | dmr said...
Ultra minor, but the homepage:
"For questions email us or to order by phone call (888) 258-8440."
The phone number requires a "1" and the "888, but the parens imply its optional. We always prefer "1-888-258-8440".
16 Dec 2003 | Chris from Scottsdale said...
That is an awesome site. So much to do and it navigates wonderfully.
I think however that I would like to see a video of the bike in action. Not just photos.
16 Dec 2003 | Carl Beeth said...
Great site and cool product! Here is my hair splitting remark:
I'm not quite sure I like the semitabed menu. Right now you have have the space to accommodate the tab but without the tabs it it looks awkward.
Example here It sort of idiot proofs the design.
16 Dec 2003 | Jamie said...
Tight! (I had no idea you moved to Oregon!)
16 Dec 2003 | Matthew Oliphant said...
Cool site. I have a similar misunderstanding about how to size. I get the wall and tape part, but I am not sure how to turn that into an S, M L, XL. Perhaps show the inches (how about metric?) range for each bike size?
And a small comment on that (this is a preference comment only), since there are only 4 sizes can you change the drop-down selection to radio buttons so I can see all the choices without using my mouse?
Also, in answer to your query on your Bio page... Try the Red Agave in Eugene (by the train station downtown), and Anatolia's on 10th and Willamette (also in Eugene). For breakfast try the Keystone Cafe which is on 3rd? kinda near the REI in Eugene. Heh, I know you're in Corvallis, but I only visited there once in a while when I lived in Eugene.
16 Dec 2003 | Matthew Oliphant said...
Gah! When I choose the option to print the page, it looks like I am sent to a new page without the top and left navs, but I use the back button (actually alt+leftarrow) and it takes me back a page to view not what I had chose to print, but the page I had viewed before. I guess you are hide/showing divs?
Probably not a big deal in the scheme of things, but I did get lost. And as a user, though not a typical one if that exists, I hate being lost.
16 Dec 2003 | pek said...
EK, what was the biggest fish you caught?
16 Dec 2003 | Don Schenck said...
Lovely site, lovely bikes ... especially the Solar Yellow. Why ... that's the same color as my ... SPYDER!
Good job EK.
16 Dec 2003 | JF said...
(these are the comments I sent to EK via email)
Positives:
The site is gorgeous. Really well done. Great attention to detail. Great copy. It feels honest (although a bit wordy at times). Super photography -- love that you have huge high res shots of the bike and special "parts" of the bike. Those really make be feel like this is a quality piece of kit. Shows you aren't ashamed of your product (which is rare!). I also like how the site doesn't feel linear, but I can page through the "Start exploring" section with the next and continue links at the bottom of the pages. Nice way to encourage me to continue exploring. Nice use of subtle animated GIFs too. They help make the point. Also, good idea on including pictures of the shop and short bios of everyone who works there -- makes it all feel real and personal.
The site also makes me feel like Bigha owners are part of a special club. That owners really "get it." And this is all done without making them feel snobby.
Nice copies of some of the good things at Apple.com (the 3 features on the home page, and the "includes everything" section -- http://www.bigha.com/buy/index.php -- on the shop page).
Negatives:
1. I think you guys need to do a better job explaining why this bike is $3K and the competition is half that price. Maybe come out and say it with a page that says "Why this bike is worth $3,000." Just a thought.
2. You should have a link to the high res picture gallery available on EVERY page. It's hard to remember where it is after you've left it. And it's such a huge selling point.
3. The checkout page where you enter your credit card info doesn't appear to be secure. Might freak some people out.
16 Dec 2003 | Brad Hurley said...
It's a beautiful site!
One good addition to the FAQs would be: "How do you pronounce 'Bigha?'
I don't know if it's pronounced "bigga," the way a Boston native would say the word "bigger," or "beega," or something else.
I recently bought a laptop bag from the Tom Bihn online store, and I still don't know how to pronounce his name because the site doesn't say. But the Teva sandals site lets you know that Teva is pronounced "Teh-vah" not "Tee-vah," and somewhere on Edward Tufte's site he mentions that his name is pronounced "Tuf-tee." These things are important!
16 Dec 2003 | pek said...
I would think Big Ha! Not Bighah, Beeghah or BigHay. Cos the logo is an elephant (big) with a funny hat(ha!). That's my guess.
16 Dec 2003 | jedrek said...
I spent 5 years in Corvallis, growing up. It was a great place to live and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.
16 Dec 2003 | monkeyinabox said...
Corvallis is not the wilderness!
Nice bike for all those Californians who move to Oregon to retire. :)
16 Dec 2003 | ek said...
Hey everyone, thanks a million for the comments, I really, really appreciate all of them!
Everyone makes good points on the sizing, we'll have to work on that. I think a good interim solution may be to just add the inch equivalents alongside the sizes in the size drop down menu, as Matthew O. had suggested (though I don't think we'll have room to do it as radio buttons).
You know what, now that I'm looking at it again, that was a total oversight on my part (not including the inch equivalents in the size drop down), they were supposed to be in there. I'll fix that asap.
To dmr, on the phone number thing, have you found that people actually have a problem with the parens vs. 1-800? I hadn't even considered that.
To Matthew on the print thing, that is not quite the way that I wanted to implement that, but what we're doing is dynamically switching the stylesheets when you click for the printable version. You're looking at the same exact HTML, just presented via a different .css file (that's something I learned from SU! ;-).
You actually don't even have to select the printable version because (as long as your browser supports it) we have a print stylesheet setup, but I thought it would be nice to provide a little reminder to people that they can indeed print the pages.
Oh, and thanks for the recommendations in Eugene. We've only been down there twice, but we're already big fans (although I can't admit that publicly up here in Beaver country ;-). We were down there last weekend and went to an amazingly good Thai restaurant. I may be getting it mixed up with another place, but I think it was called Makela. We'll definitely try all of the places you mentioned though.
And how amazing is it to find someone on here who grew up (for at least a little while) in Corvallis! My wife and I are both definitely enjoying it out here. It is so beautiful and, though it does rain every day in the winter, it's a heck of a lot warmer than it is in Chicago.
On the pronunciation thing, that's a good idea. We should definitely add that to the FAQs. To those who are wondering, pek has it right, it's big-ha as in, hey that elephant is really big, and, ha-ha, it's wearing a party hat.
On JF's feedback, I definitely agree with all of it, especially the part about doing a better job letting people know why the bike is worth $3,000. It's one of those things where, when you see it in person, you really get it. You may not be willing to pay for it, but everyone I know who's seen the bike in person does get why it costs what it does. The trick for us is to get that across without the seeing-it-in person part.
We did get one thing from your list fixed though JF. The entire checkout process should now be secure (if it does not appear to be for anyone, please let me know).
Thanks again for the feedback everyone and my apologies if I failed to respond to anyone's question. Also, please feel free to keep them coming -- I'm happy to answer whatever I can.
16 Dec 2003 | ek said...
Two comments I meant to reply to, first Carl Beeth's...
I had considered doing the full-blown tab thing as well, but I thought it just looked too navigation heavy. I think the way you mocked it up is quite nice though. If we have to add another main section we may have to go the full-blown tab route.
To Jamie, yeah man, I made the move out West! I thought I emailed you before we left? Drop me a line whenever you have a chance. Love to hear how you and the formerly-of-Organic gang are doing.
16 Dec 2003 | MrBlank said...
Ernest, that is a great looking site. I especially like the Our People section. Its a nice personal touch that makes me feel more comfortable when buying a bike that expensive. If I rode more Id look into one I dont care how dorky they make me look. :)
The only thing that bugs me about the site, and this is because I work in print, are the double hyphens instead of em dashes and inch/foot marks for quotes/apostrophes. Are there limitations to type on the web that make those things hard to do?
16 Dec 2003 | ek said...
Hey MrBlank, thanks for the comments! I put a huge amount of time into the "Our People" section, so I'm really glad to hear that it had an effect on you.
On the em dash/quote apostrophe thing, you know, I really don't know what the answer to that is. Is there an "official" special character code for em dashes? How about for true quotes (I'm using ") and apostrophes?
16 Dec 2003 | Matthew Oliphant said...
Isn't it & mdash ;
Except as on word. Can't remember the html for "don't parse."
17 Dec 2003 | Brad Hurley said...
I think the em dashes are probably more important than the curly quotes and apostrophes, but here you go (assuming this works...preview causes some of the codes to parse but I think I did it right, we'll see):
Em dash: —
Opening quote: “
Closing quote: ”
Apostrophe: ’
Just be sure you never change the character encoding on your pages, otherwise these will get messed up (as I learned the hard way)
17 Dec 2003 | Brad Hurley said...
Ah, it worked, saved from embarrassment!
You can do a simple site-wide search-and-replace for -- and replace it with the code for em dash. The quotes are more complicated and may not be worth the trouble, but you could first search for ." and replace that with the closing quote (though if you have questions or exclamations that are quoted you'd also need to search for ?" and !"), and then do another search and replace for "[space], which should catch any closing quotes that are in the middle of sentences. Once you're done with all that, the remaining " symbols could probably be safely replaced with the symbol for opening quotes.
17 Dec 2003 | Brad Hurley said...
Um, sorry for triple-posting here, but I should also point out, although it should be obvious, that you'd want to search for those " marks in the TEXT, not in your code (if your HTML editor allows you to distinguish betwixt the two), since you certainly don't want to replace all the "s in your code!!!
17 Dec 2003 | dmr said...
I would avoid the name codes 'mdash;' and opt for the 4 digit numeric ones; via my site: http://www.sizefactory.com/xhtml/xhtmlcheatsheet.html
Codes are at the bottom.
17 Dec 2003 | JP said...
WRT typographically correct quotes, em-dashes, etc., I've always found Dean Allen's Textile generator invaluable. John Gruber has also riffed on the subject with his Smarty Pants plugin for BBEdit and a couple of blog platforms.
Enjoy!
17 Dec 2003 | dmr said...
Rats, forgot about EK's question on phone numbers; it's not really about people misunderstanding, but more of a grammer thing. As (813) 910-0909 would imply if I live in the 813 area code I don't need to dial it. The 1-888 is necessary to dial (unless your on a cell, which I was considering last night) and properly connect. I suppose it's a judgement call and all is well so long as your consistent in the implimentation.
Also, where is the super high res imagery everyone is talking about? I think I found it "image gallery", but they don't appear to be HUGE to meam I missing something?
17 Dec 2003 | Seth Werkheiser said...
I got the Bigha DVD a few months back and LOVED IT! The packaging was very well done, and the DVD was excellent as well. Congrats on the job - perhaps someday I can afford a nice bike from there : ) Till then the Cannondale will have to do.
17 Dec 2003 | Brad Hurley said...
I would avoid the name codes 'mdash;' and opt for the 4 digit numeric ones
Why? I'm not challenging you, just curious about why one would be better than the other. I like the name codes because they're at least somewhat intuitive and I at least stand a chance of remembering them: mdash is obviously "em dash," ldquo is "left double quote," rdquo is "right double quote," and rsquo is "right single quote."
17 Dec 2003 | dmr said...
http://alistapart.com/articles/emen/ will explain all fine sirs!
17 Dec 2003 | Brad Hurley said...
Ah, well that article was written in 2001, when compatibility with Netscape 4.x browsers was more important than it is now. My understanding is that all subsequent browsers support the name codes, so it should be fine to use them unless you want to accommodate the vanishingly small percentage of users who still use Netscape 4.
17 Dec 2003 | Mark Fusco said...
I pulled up the site on an older machine (IE 5.5 / Win 95) that I have at home and although the site design stayed together nicely, the font used for the main content tweeked out to something (almost reminds me of a berhardfashion style) that is very difficult to read.
I've posted a screenshot for your reference that I'll leave up through Friday.
//lightpierce.com/4_ek/screenshot.jpg
It might just be this box I'm using, but I still find it interesting that everything else stayed together - including the header text.
17 Dec 2003 | MrBlank said...
Required reading for any designer. I find this book to be a great resource. It not only gives the rules for correct style, it also gives the history and reasoning behind the rules. This is a simpler book that is less involved. I also noticed that the second edition has a chapter on web typography. There is also a PC is not a typewriter edition.
Also, getting these special characters on a Mac is easy with keyboard shortcuts. In Windows its more difficult. You have to either use the character map program, memorize asci code for each character, or you can save a MS Word document with the characters you use and copy and paste out of that.
17 Dec 2003 | MrBlank said...
Required reading for any designer. I find this book to be a great resource. It not only gives the rules for correct style, it also gives the history and reasoning behind the rules. This is a simpler book that is less involved. I also noticed that the second edition has a chapter on web typography. There is also a PC is not a typewriter edition.
Also, getting these special characters on a Mac is easy with keyboard shortcuts. In Windows its more difficult. You have to either use the character map program, memorize asci code for each character, or you can save a MS Word document with the characters you use and copy and paste out of that.
17 Dec 2003 | Darrel said...
[quote]have you found that people actually have a problem with the parens vs. 1-800[/quote]
I don't think the parens are an issue with an 800 number. 888 is maybe a bit iffier...as many recognize it as an '800' number, but some may not. However, yesterday I had to ask someone if '877' was toll free. We're at the point where I can't keep up with the different toll-free prefixes. So...I'd suggest that the more important thing is to add 'toll free' to the signature line just to clarify it.
17 Dec 2003 | Darrel said...
ah crap...don't you hate it when you get mixed up and apply the wrong 'blog/forum' markup to the wrong blog/forum? ;o)
17 Dec 2003 | One of several Steves said...
We're at the point where I can't keep up with the different toll-free prefixes.
800, 888, 877, 866.
Of course, I'm well-known amongst my friends for effortlessly retaining vast amounts of useless information. I really have no business knowing that above.
17 Dec 2003 | ek said...
Hey dmr, thanks a lot for that alistapart link. Reading through it made my head hurt, but it's very useful info to know. I don't think it'll take too long to convert all of our -- into em dashes. I think I'm going to stick with the quotes and apostrophes as they are, though – I don't think the cost in time is worth it.
To MarkFusco, thanks for that screenshot. I'm not really sure why that's happening. The header text is actually an image, which explains why it still looks good. Does anyone else have a machine with IE 5.5 on it? Ugh, why does MS have to make it so hard to run multiple versions of IE on the same box? I know it's possible, but it's way more of a pain than it ought to be.
Speaking of MS, I forgot to mention that this is the first Web site I've created on a Mac in eight or nine years (yes, I am a switcher!). I have to say that the experience has been a true pleasure. OS X is now amazingly stable (over the course of 2+ months I did not once reboot) and the way apps are integrated with each other and the OS is just so nice. As I told Jason, after using the Mac for a while, I couldn't believe that I used an XP box as my primary machine for so many years.
I still have an XP machine alongside on my desk for testing, but 99% of my development is now done on a 15" G4 PowerBook (the aluminum version). It also doesn't hurt that, attached to the laptop is a 23-inch Cinema HD Display. Man, how I wish I could afford one of them for home! ;-)
18 Dec 2003 | Mark Fusco said...
The header text is actually an image...
So it is! I could've sworn I was able to select the text this morning when I looked at it - but then again, it was around 5 in the morning...
18 Dec 2003 | Grrrr said...
I think this site ripped off your design.
18 Dec 2003 | ek said...
Damn them, they're going to hear from our lawyers! ;-)
19 Dec 2003 | dmr said...
After clicking on the homepage image I found my biggest issue "There's much to learn and like about a Bigha. To discover more, click here". UGH; no "click here" please, more context for links is a must!
19 Dec 2003 | The Scholar said...
My only concern is not having a hover effect on the tabbed navigation. To us it is common sense that they are links, but the only way to show that the cursor change. A different state would definitely help the users.
23 Dec 2003 | ek said...
Hey dmr, I hear you, I hate that too. I started to get a little lazy near the end.
And The Scholar, you make a good point as well. Maybe we could combine your hover idea with Carl Beeth's subtle tab idea? So you'd see very light tabs whenever you roll over the non-active sections. I think that could be nice.
Thanks again everyone for your awesome feedback!
